Comments on: Ancient Qoutes http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/ Today, when you hear His voice, listen ... Heb 4 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:10:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: pharga http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6279 pharga Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:15:46 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6279 Andre said: "It is unfortunate when great truths are reduced to debates." So true, I do not even consider it important any more. As if debates would change any thing. It seems that many think if they win the argument something in this world will change. Andre said: “It is unfortunate when great truths are reduced to debates.”

So true, I do not even consider it important any more. As if debates would change any thing. It seems that many think if they win the argument something in this world will change.

]]> By: Roddy http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6253 Roddy Wed, 05 Dec 2007 21:41:40 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6253 Wise words Francois . The message of inclusion in Christ is the wonderful antidote to the subtelty of holding what we consider to be superior beliefs that only serve to seperate and create that "us and them" dynamic with-in the body of Christ. Some say they even follow Christ is always evidence of that elitist spirit and pride that the Lords people are so prone to falling into when they have recieved much light . The light of the truth of our inclusion puts us all in that holy place where no distinctions can be made and unites us in the one-ness of the Spirit and love for God and each other. Wise words Francois . The message of inclusion in Christ is the wonderful antidote to the subtelty of holding what we consider to be superior beliefs that only serve to seperate and create that “us and them” dynamic with-in the body of Christ. Some say they even follow Christ is always evidence of that elitist spirit and pride that the Lords people are so prone to falling into when they have recieved much light . The light of the truth of our inclusion puts us all in that holy place where no distinctions can be made and unites us in the one-ness of the Spirit and love for God and each other.

]]> By: Francois du Toit http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6252 Francois du Toit Tue, 04 Dec 2007 07:10:21 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6252 That is certainly the heart of God, We are in full agreement on that That is certainly the heart of God, We are in full agreement on that

]]> By: Andre Rabe http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6251 Andre Rabe Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:03:14 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6251 It is unfortunate when great truths are reduced to debates. Indeed many of the sites I have visited are occupied with arguments that distracts rather than focus people. For me and I believe for this site the clear focus is the character of God, the value of man, and the fulfillment of His eternal purpose. Paul was obviously gripped by the enormity and success of God's plan to reconcile everything to Himself ... I can't help myself ... I am in awe at the wisdom and skill of Gods love to triumph over all; for eternity to swallow up every contradiction in time. Death will die! Evil is temporal! All nations will remember and turn to the Lord. These are thoughts I cannot ignore. These are truths that adorn the Gospel of Christ. I agree that it is so much more than a debate about the nature of Hell. It is unfortunate when great truths are reduced to debates. Indeed many of the sites I have visited are occupied with arguments that distracts rather than focus people. For me and I believe for this site the clear focus is the character of God, the value of man, and the fulfillment of His eternal purpose. Paul was obviously gripped by the enormity and success of God’s plan to reconcile everything to Himself … I can’t help myself … I am in awe at the wisdom and skill of Gods love to triumph over all; for eternity to swallow up every contradiction in time. Death will die! Evil is temporal! All nations will remember and turn to the Lord. These are thoughts I cannot ignore. These are truths that adorn the Gospel of Christ. I agree that it is so much more than a debate about the nature of Hell.

]]> By: Francois du Toit http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6250 Francois du Toit Mon, 03 Dec 2007 09:49:17 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6250 I am often overwhelmed with the thought of the ultimate extent of the great work of redemption and act of reconciliation that God undertook to rescue the human race. Underestimating this great salvation has always been the biggest sin of the church. The greatest safeguard we can ever give someone against possible judgment or the devil is not to make them believe that these do not exist, but to believe enough in our message that reveals truth in such a way that every possible excuse we could have to experience distance from God or to continue in any form of sin, guilt, fear or an inferior lifestyle is done away with. In its stead there remains only the wide open arms of Father God longing to embrace the individual and the world into unrestricted friendship. There is enough ingredient in the positive revelation of Christ in you to rid you of a sin consciousness and its dreadful consequence. Our message is not to persuade people that there is no hell, but rather to convince them that Christ suffered the horror of it to liberate us from its dread and destiny. The focus and central theme of the Gospel is the revelation of the mystery of man’s inclusion in the death Jesus died and our co-resurrection and joint-position in he father’s right hand. The success of the cross is not measured by possible future statistics as much as it is measured by the present encounter of individuals experiencing the liberating forgiveness of sins and an understanding of their innocence that leads to a tangible intimacy with the living God and spontaneous love for people. God pleads through us to bring people to realize their full inclusion in the Gospel . Let His love in you reveal Him to your neighbors and the nations. His love is unthreatened and needs no defense! Col.4:4 This is my prayer request, that I may be able to present this message in the most effective way possible. 4:5 Do not spoil your chance to touch others with the word through a lack of wisdom. Redeem the time by making the most of every opportunity. (Time only finds its relevance in redemption-realities) 4:6 Season your conversation with the revelation of grace. This remains the most attractive and appropriate option to respond in every situation. I am often overwhelmed with the thought of the ultimate extent of the great work of redemption and act of reconciliation that God undertook to rescue the human race. Underestimating this great salvation has always been the biggest sin of the church.
The greatest safeguard we can ever give someone against possible judgment or the devil is not to make them believe that these do not exist, but to believe enough in our message that reveals truth in such a way that every possible excuse we could have to experience distance from God or to continue in any form of sin, guilt, fear or an inferior lifestyle is done away with. In its stead there remains only the wide open arms of Father God longing to embrace the individual and the world into unrestricted friendship.
There is enough ingredient in the positive revelation of Christ in you to rid you of a sin consciousness and its dreadful consequence.
Our message is not to persuade people that there is no hell, but rather to convince them that Christ suffered the horror of it to liberate us from its dread and destiny. The focus and central theme of the Gospel is the revelation of the mystery of man’s inclusion in the death Jesus died and our co-resurrection and joint-position in he father’s right hand. The success of the cross is not measured by possible future statistics as much as it is measured by the present encounter of individuals experiencing the liberating forgiveness of sins and an understanding of their innocence that leads to a tangible intimacy with the living God and spontaneous love for people. God pleads through us to bring people to realize their full inclusion in the Gospel .
Let His love in you reveal Him to your neighbors and the nations. His love is unthreatened and needs no defense!
Col.4:4 This is my prayer request, that I may be able to present this message in the most effective way possible.
4:5 Do not spoil your chance to touch others with the word through a lack of wisdom. Redeem the time by making the most of every opportunity. (Time only finds its relevance in redemption-realities)
4:6 Season your conversation with the revelation of grace. This remains the most attractive and appropriate option to respond in every situation.

]]> By: Andre Rabe http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6248 Andre Rabe Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:19:00 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6248 Matthys ... so good to hear from you. I have the photos of our SA holiday scroll through as a background on my Mac. So from time to time your joyful face lights up the room. Matthys & Craig. Both of you touched on the very heart of why this message is important - it reveals something about the character of God ... and any lesser gospel is ultimately an insult to His character. You touched on the fact that God is all-knowing. We also know that He is all-powerful and all-love. I believe that God is love and that He is wise and powerful enough to bring all of creation back to His original purpose - that we may all be one and that He will be all in all. There are some who believes that God for-ordained that some would be lost forever - such beliefs are an insult to the love of God. They confirm that God is all-powerful and all-knowing - He simply chose to create some for eternal suffering. This is the most hideous concept of God. There are some who believes that salvation is purely a matter of personal choice ... that God is indeed all-loving, but He is not powerful or wise enough to persuade all people. Ultimately they don't believe that God is love either because somehow there is a limit ... a time limit for this love. The moment before death He is still loving and welcoming, but if you have not made a decision by the time you die, He suddenly withdraws His welcome and condemns you to hell. - Not a very loving god either. So this concept of god is a bit more loving than the previous one because he doesn't predestine you for suffering, but ultimately he is too weak, too dumb or too impatient to save you. This concept of god actually exalt the will of man above god. I refuse to insult God with such inferior concepts of His character. iTim2:4 God our Savior, who <strong>desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth</strong>. He has what it takes to accomplish His desire! Your comments are going to bless many - thanks. They are clear ... one can sense the meditation and thought that went into this subject. Matthys … so good to hear from you. I have the photos of our SA holiday scroll through as a background on my Mac. So from time to time your joyful face lights up the room.

Matthys & Craig.
Both of you touched on the very heart of why this message is important – it reveals something about the character of God … and any lesser gospel is ultimately an insult to His character.
You touched on the fact that God is all-knowing. We also know that He is all-powerful and all-love.
I believe that God is love and that He is wise and powerful enough to bring all of creation back to His original purpose – that we may all be one and that He will be all in all.

There are some who believes that God for-ordained that some would be lost forever – such beliefs are an insult to the love of God. They confirm that God is all-powerful and all-knowing – He simply chose to create some for eternal suffering. This is the most hideous concept of God.

There are some who believes that salvation is purely a matter of personal choice … that God is indeed all-loving, but He is not powerful or wise enough to persuade all people. Ultimately they don’t believe that God is love either because somehow there is a limit … a time limit for this love. The moment before death He is still loving and welcoming, but if you have not made a decision by the time you die, He suddenly withdraws His welcome and condemns you to hell. – Not a very loving god either. So this concept of god is a bit more loving than the previous one because he doesn’t predestine you for suffering, but ultimately he is too weak, too dumb or too impatient to save you. This concept of god actually exalt the will of man above god.

I refuse to insult God with such inferior concepts of His character.
iTim2:4 God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He has what it takes to accomplish His desire!

Your comments are going to bless many – thanks. They are clear … one can sense the meditation and thought that went into this subject.

]]> By: Craig http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6247 Craig Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:30:14 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6247 Andre, I have met Francois du Toit a few times and he knows my Dad quite well (from Elyon I think, and because Francois occasionally comes by this way and gives teachings). I stay in Bethal which is close to where you grew up, I believe. I got to know about Thomas Talbott's book from the link on this site and I am very glad I did. I think this is an important topic. I have spoken to a few people who are of the opinion that since this is something we will never know for certain, we should instead focus on other more important things and not worry too much about it. But does it not have a significant effect on one's idea of who God is? I would also think that it weakens the beauty of the gospel. What made the gospel so beautiful to me when I first heard it was that it communicated to me that God took the iniative to work out this great plan of the glorification of man in the most intricate and incalculable detail, and that His plan was successful - He was always in control of each event; He succeeded in reconciling every person to Himself, and at the same time revealed the true identity of every person as His son or daughter. Not only this - He also made Christ "the author and finisher of our faith", which means that He is responsible for unveiling the mystery of Christ to each person. So if it wasn't for Him I would never have seen or understood anything of the gospel. So the beauty of the gospel is really the communication to us of what sort of person God is, and of course of the value God places on man. I think that in Paul's time there must have been all sorts of conceptions of who God is, but the gospel revealed Him as a Father who cared for us by accomplishing a plan that would benefit us in the most important ways. Now if we are promoting this gospel wherein God took the iniative to accomplish the plan, and a person's entry into this plan is by faith (understanding), and God is responsible for opening the person's eyes to understand because He is the only once who knows how, does it make logical sense to say that because the person never accepted the plan, or was indifferent to it, he should be eternally separated from God? In a commentary I read the writer made the point that God allowed man to have wrong conceptions of His character all throughout history as part of a greater plan. The gospel announced an overwhelming change in the way we ought to think of Him and Paul in his letters encouraged his hearers to discover God in this new light, as in Ephesians 3. Andre,
I have met Francois du Toit a few times and he knows my Dad quite well (from Elyon I think, and because Francois occasionally comes by this way and gives teachings). I stay in Bethal which is close to where you grew up, I believe.

I got to know about Thomas Talbott’s book from the link on this site and I am very glad I did. I think this is an important topic. I have spoken to a few people who are of the opinion that since this is something we will never know for certain, we should instead focus on other more important things and not worry too much about it. But does it not have a significant effect on one’s idea of who God is? I would also think that it weakens the beauty of the gospel. What made the gospel so beautiful to me when I first heard it was that it communicated to me that God took the iniative to work out this great plan of the glorification of man in the most intricate and incalculable detail, and that His plan was successful – He was always in control of each event; He succeeded in reconciling every person to Himself, and at the same time revealed the true identity of every person as His son or daughter. Not only this – He also made Christ “the author and finisher of our faith”, which means that He is responsible for unveiling the mystery of Christ to each person. So if it wasn’t for Him I would never have seen or understood anything of the gospel.

So the beauty of the gospel is really the communication to us of what sort of person God is, and of course of the value God places on man. I think that in Paul’s time there must have been all sorts of conceptions of who God is, but the gospel revealed Him as a Father who cared for us by accomplishing a plan that would benefit us in the most important ways.

Now if we are promoting this gospel wherein God took the iniative to accomplish the plan, and a person’s entry into this plan is by faith (understanding), and God is responsible for opening the person’s eyes to understand because He is the only once who knows how, does it make logical sense to say that because the person never accepted the plan, or was indifferent to it, he should be eternally separated from God?

In a commentary I read the writer made the point that God allowed man to have wrong conceptions of His character all throughout history as part of a greater plan. The gospel announced an overwhelming change in the way we ought to think of Him and Paul in his letters encouraged his hearers to discover God in this new light, as in Ephesians 3.

]]> By: Matthys http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6246 Matthys Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:49:44 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6246 Hi Andre. Thanks for the post. God is all knowing. Why would he create people because of love if he knew they would be separated from Him for eternity in a burning pool of fire? He would have done them a favour if he didn't create them at all... Knowing that God is all knowing He obviously knows something most people have missed out on: the success of His salvation. I am convinced more than ever that all of of Mankind have been saved. It is our joy to declare to them the gospel of their salvation. Hi Andre.

Thanks for the post.

God is all knowing. Why would he create people because of love if he knew they would be separated from Him for eternity in a burning pool of fire? He would have done them a favour if he didn’t create them at all… Knowing that God is all knowing He obviously knows something most people have missed out on: the success of His salvation.

I am convinced more than ever that all of of Mankind have been saved. It is our joy to declare to them the gospel of their salvation.

]]> By: Andre Rabe http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6245 Andre Rabe Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:26:07 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6245 Craig, You must be the first person I chatted to who also read Thomas Talbott’s book “The inescapable love of God”. It was a very timely read for me, as I published the article 'Irresistable Love' a few weeks before and got a lot of responces ranging from ecstatic to violantly apposed. The book was such an encouragement - I read it in one night. There are so many illocigal arguments as to why eternal suffering is justified - non of them makes sence if God is love. As a earthly father I can't imagine any scenario in which I will consciously make one of my children suffer for eternity ... how much greater is the love and patience and grace of our heavenly Father. Love always believes the best, hopes, is patient and never... never ... never fails. I know so many 'Du Toits' - Are you family of Francois or Leon du Toit? ... ultimately we all have the same origin! Blessings. Andre Craig,
You must be the first person I chatted to who also read Thomas Talbott’s book “The inescapable love of God”. It was a very timely read for me, as I published the article ‘Irresistable Love’ a few weeks before and got a lot of responces ranging from ecstatic to violantly apposed. The book was such an encouragement – I read it in one night. There are so many illocigal arguments as to why eternal suffering is justified – non of them makes sence if God is love. As a earthly father I can’t imagine any scenario in which I will consciously make one of my children suffer for eternity … how much greater is the love and patience and grace of our heavenly Father. Love always believes the best, hopes, is patient and never… never … never fails.
I know so many ‘Du Toits’ – Are you family of Francois or Leon du Toit? … ultimately we all have the same origin!
Blessings. Andre

]]> By: Craig http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/comment-page-1/#comment-6244 Craig Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:47:44 +0000 http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2007/11/22/ancient-qoutes/#comment-6244 Thanks Andre, for the past two weeks I have been reading Origen's "De Principiis". (I had not read anything of Origen or Clement before this). It seems to me that once you discover the truth about the identity of mankind it must lead you on to considering the possibility that "all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe". In any case, it is only a confused sense of identity that separates any man from God. And I believe that God is capable in His great plan for each person of revealing to each one what needs to be revealed in order for that person to see the truth. I believe that the love of God is irresistible. Thomas Talbott's book "The inescapable love of God" has made quite an impact on my thinking in this respect. This is so different from the traditional way of thinking that it seems to be unthinkable even to the most open-minded of Christians. The idea that it is "too late to change your mind" after this life is so deeply ingrained in our thinking. But consider this : Is it possible that our Father, the Father of all mankind, who is Love and only Love (He does not have a dual nature but everything He does is according to the plan of Love), would not embrace a son who returned to Him, whether in this life or the next? Do we restrict God's love to this realm only, or impose a cut-off point beyond which His love cannot reach? There is something in the logic of this traditional way of thinking that doesn't add up. My brother's response to me was that God paid so high a price for the salvation of Mankind that anyone who still rejects it deserves to be separated from Him for eternity. Does this mean that God did not know how many people would accept Him in this life, and that His master plan of love was not that successful? Or perhaps God could not predict the success that His plan would have. He was so confident about His Word that He said "So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please and purpose, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." Thanks Andre, for the past two weeks I have been reading Origen’s “De Principiis”. (I had not read anything of Origen or Clement before this).
It seems to me that once you discover the truth about the identity of mankind it must lead you on to considering the possibility that “all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe”. In any case, it is only a confused sense of identity that separates any man from God. And I believe that God is capable in His great plan for each person of revealing to each one what needs to be revealed in order for that person to see the truth. I believe that the love of God is irresistible.
Thomas Talbott’s book “The inescapable love of God” has made quite an impact on my thinking in this respect.
This is so different from the traditional way of thinking that it seems to be unthinkable even to the most open-minded of Christians. The idea that it is “too late to change your mind” after this life is so deeply ingrained in our thinking. But consider this : Is it possible that our Father, the Father of all mankind, who is Love and only Love (He does not have a dual nature but everything He does is according to the plan of Love), would not embrace a son who returned to Him, whether in this life or the next? Do we restrict God’s love to this realm only, or impose a cut-off point beyond which His love cannot reach?
There is something in the logic of this traditional way of thinking that doesn’t add up. My brother’s response to me was that God paid so high a price for the salvation of Mankind that anyone who still rejects it deserves to be separated from Him for eternity. Does this mean that God did not know how many people would accept Him in this life, and that His master plan of love was not that successful? Or perhaps God could not predict the success that His plan would have. He was so confident about His Word that He said “So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please and purpose, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.”

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